Note: this page should be about the discussion that took place during the conference itself. Comments should be written elsewhere, e.g. on the mailing list.

This conference is mainly about the livery system for Advtrains. The conference started at 20:05 UTC.

Chat Log

W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:ahahah 
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:i was thinking of doing it ahah 
19:59
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:Maverick: 
https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
 
19:59
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:genius 
19:59
W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:i think we'll wait 5 more minutes 
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:2 participants are a bit late 
20:00
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:or are we all early? 
20:00
56i, La Computeroda
56i, La Computeroda says:I remember when i was an hour late Xd 
20:00
W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:erstazi is missing 
20:00
56i, La Computeroda
56i, La Computeroda says:I'm fine 
56i, La Computeroda says:It's literally 20:05 for me, so i'm fine 
56i, La Computeroda says:I've also been having trial runs with coffee, so i was vibrating this morning lol 
20:04
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:21:05 and it's still bright outside 
20:05
W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:ok i think we'll start 
20:05
56i, La Computeroda
56i, La Computeroda says:I hate summer. I can't wake up at a same time because the sun obnoxiously screams through my window at 04:58 
20:05
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:03:05 and dark AF 
20:05
W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:
https://advtrains.de/wiki/doku.php?id=dev:proposals:paintertool
 
20:06
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:I see the proposal on the wiki the first time now. 
20:07
Fellow Jitster
Fellow Jitster says:Welcome in 
Fellow Jitster says:I like your proposal 
20:11
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:I like the proposal, As I am skimming the wiki now. 
doxygen-spammer says:Yes, thats my idea with multi_component_liveries too. I would like to define an official Minetest group group:rgb_painting_tool. 
doxygen-spammer says:Such a tool whould just provide paint_color and alpha as metadata, withut interacting itself. 
20:13
me says:I think the bike painter needs to be able to pick up colours. The amount of times i have had to recolour my rolling stock because of a simple colour change.... 
20:15
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:I like the aging, anyway. 
20:15
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:56i: There is the idea of creating a printer track/LuaATC API for that 
20:15
Marnack
Marnack says:I agree, aging shold not be part of this. 
20:15
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:aging = great, but not essential compared to a base livery 
20:15
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:+1 
20:15
me says:I would prefer a LuaATC api. If we made tracks for each thing you can do, then it would be a nightmare (Here is the door track, here is the speed track, and here is the painter track) 
me says:100%, we need to superseed it 
20:16
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:we need to agree on a uniform api that covers (afaik) 3 different methods of changing the texture applied 
20:17
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:What could be possible is to provide some tabs for "standard" options and some for wagon/painter-specific options. 
20:18
me says:I like that, 1+ 
20:19
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:tool:   on_use = show_wagon_livery_forspec 
20:20
me says:I would love that, but we should consider performance 
20:21
W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:something like this: 
https://forum.minetest.net/download/file.php?id=7499
 
20:21
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:There is a `model[]` syntax (afaik) for showing models in formspecs 
20:21
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L2492
 
Maverick2797 says:model formspec code 
20:22
me says:Will there be a way we can have a way of hand-crafting our own textures in-game, for our own companies? 
me says:¿And save externally? 
20:24
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:Small logos could be assambled by nodes and then be expported to an image. 
doxygen-spammer says:But I think whole liveries would not work. 
20:24
W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:
https://github.com/W3RQ01/Advtrains_Platform/blob/main/init.lua
 
20:29
Marnack
Marnack says:I have 
20:32
me says:I have used the tram and painted it with the bike painter, but i haven 
20:32
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:not yet 
20:32
me says:'t had a chance to use the inside painter 
me says:+1 
20:33
mary4
mary4 says:there should be a confirmation for the deletion 
20:33
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:confirmation before deletion vs save before exit? 
20:34
mary4
mary4 says:both 
20:34
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:True. 
doxygen-spammer says:livery_nodes shall give better UX for painting. 
doxygen-spammer says:Basically your formspec sketch built of nodes. 
20:34
me says:I can adjust to L+S 
me says:As a user 
20:35
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:Yeah. 
doxygen-spammer says:No, there are too many people talking sensitive stuff here. 
20:35
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:would it be possible to adapt the multi-component style to wagons with only a single component? 
20:36
Marnack
Marnack says:dlx is more complex because the normal and aged liveries are in the same png file 
20:37
me says:Do you think that as more trains get livery options, there will be a few-box system of liveries, with a different type of livery system for a different group of trains? Will all livery options will be standardised to one system, which can be used for everything? 
me says:100% love that 
20:40
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:I thought orwell wanted to revive itrainmap? 
20:40
me says:On the topic of copy tool, i feel like we need a train delete tool,which deletes an entire train. This is useful when you get ovezealous with the copy tool, or merge lines onto the same track and need to reduce frequency. 
20:41
W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:no violence to trains 
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:store them on a depot 
20:41
me says:I'd rather store them inside; i am scared of the roof breaking. 
20:42
mary4
mary4 says:ywang the bug of line speed restriction is still around on LF 
20:42
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:itrainmap: yeah i think that was also going to be part of/after the route_prog_rework branch? 
20:42
me says:100%, we need automation as there are less people on the server then workers needed for trains 
20:42
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:first sign of a good train enthusiast 😛 
20:43
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:56i: Shanghai Metro? 
20:43
me says:It would be nicer after beta to put the systems together 
me says:Like E321 is one component entirely 
me says:And you can pick from preset colours, working wtih DLXcompanies 
me says:The bike painter should be usable until the livery system works to a high level 
me says:A level so high the bike painter is like using a butter knife compared to a butcher's knife 
20:45
Marnack
Marnack says:A goal of dlx was to avoid needing to use a formspec.  (Not that I'm opposed to having one in the future) 
20:46
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:I would also like to see bike painters as a marketing tool. “Nalmost) Everything in Minetest can be colorized, just use the painter tool on something.” 
20:47
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:The problem is that there is no sensible replacement for formspecs 
20:47
me says:Excuse the pun 
20:47
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L2492
 
20:49
Marnack
Marnack says:Q: In survival mode should changing a livery have a cost?  Should be it a configuration setting that is configured for the server? 
20:50
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:maybe some consumable dye in the painter tool? 
20:51
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:That cost is hard to calculate accurately though depending on how precise it should be 
20:51
me says:IMO, it should cost maybe a few cheap craft items (paint) for the inconvienince, but the cost should be configurable. 
me says:generally, across each livery edit unit (maybe individual component recolour) 
20:51
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:And multiple components would need screenshots that line up perfectly. I thin the 3D model is just easier to implement for train mod makers. 
20:52
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:+1 
20:52
me says:+1 
me says:For Brittrains, my in-development mod, i would like to take a mix of DLX and Konstrata. You can colour some bits, but you can also take some companies (Virgin trains vs Avanti for example)# 
20:55
Marnack
Marnack says:apercy's mods 
20:55
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:Thats Why I want group:rgp_paint_ng_tool. 
20:58
me says:We should make our own bike painter and then supersede it. 
me says:Call it "100% ORIGINAL train painter" 
20:59
Marnack
Marnack says:Idea: the painter tool could have a charge level that could be recharged at a technic station. 
21:00
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:advtrains_tools:"Totally not a bike😛ainter clone"_tool 
21:00
me says:100% genuine 
21:00
Marnack
Marnack says:blockhead: nice! 
21:02
me says:Unrelated: I would like a modernised subway wagon, on-par with the E231 but specially designed for the underground. The current subway wagon is a relic of Advtrains first days, not a representation of what it is capable of today. 
21:05
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:that's what better_subway_wagon is 
21:05
me says:! 
me says:I like it 
me says:But i don't use it as it reminds me of LF. 
21:06
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:Isn't the E231 used for commuter services? 
21:07
me says:The tram, AFAIK, has its door constantly open so is unsafe 
21:07
Blockhead
Blockhead says:E231 = Yamanote Line Tokyo 
21:07
W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:E231 is a local train for local services 
21:08
me says:Also, i use the underground mod and i added sound, but it is loud and does not depend on distance like the E321. Also, i don't like the look of turns, when the tube breaks apart. 
21:08
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:No, didn’t write email. 
21:08
Blockhead
Blockhead says:git format-patch/send-patch 
21:08
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:The mod now has a command to enable/disable per player. 
doxygen-spammer says:That will be necessary, because the patch has bad side effects. 
21:09
me says:I suggest this course of action for painters:
1 - Convert bike painter into Advtrains
2 - Begin working on custome system
3 - continue work on custom system 
21:10
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:I might be interested in drawing skins. (To promote my multy_component_liveries 😉 ) 
21:11
me says:I wish i knew how 😕 What i really need to know is how to make a standard base, one with varied colours and spots, like the metal or dirt texture. 
21:12
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:My attitude so far is to supersede older trains, because I don’t really like many models. But I can’t do somuch work... 
doxygen-spammer says:Several model makers decided to make models off-center, because then you can look from the inside. View attachment... 
doxygen-spammer says:Yes, my pantograph resembles the real one very nice, but it has so much detail that I can’t texture it propely. 
21:16
W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:
https://advtrains.de/wiki/doku.php?id=usage:trains:advtrains_db160
 
21:16
me says:I like your pantograph. I wish i was that good 😕 
21:16
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:These outlines are easy to generate (intentional or not) in Blender, and are probably intended because face shading was so bad inearlier days. 
21:18
Blockhead
Blockhead says:I never found out how to do it.. should I just search (Google/DDG) it ? 
21:18
W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:
https://images.app.goo.gl/e2uHhjGtTozdTuDQ7
 
21:18
me says:Thanks, good idea 
me says:I remember stealing other textures and changing their colours XD 
me says:Thanks 
me says:it should be configurable, and maybe we should have special train washing commands to wash the train and make it brighter 
me says:I can imagine building a washable facility 
21:23
Marnack
Marnack says:Auto aging is very complex to have it look reasonable. 
21:23
me says:I am thinking of putting it in the line somewhere 
21:24
Marnack
Marnack says:aging would best be handled similar to plant growth 
21:25
me says:The rate and units should be configurable (one arbituary unit per metre, one arbituary unit per unit-time, one arbituary unit per slowdown/speedup) 
21:26
Blockhead
Blockhead says:*arbitrary 
21:26
me says:Sorry, the English spelling system is no good 
21:26
Blockhead
Blockhead says:pronounced "arbitree" by many people 
21:26
me says:Are-Bituary, like obituary for me 
21:27
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:tomato potato. can we agree that the English language sucks? 
21:28
W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:use italian 
21:28
me says:Yes. I am actually making a simplified dialect, called Renglish. It has it's own spelling system 
me says:Yo tolka hablo poco Español y poco Ruso 😕 
21:28
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:Perhaps we can have a callback to have the wagon handle the texture? 
21:28
Marnack
Marnack says:yes, it would have to be wagon specific, perhaps even per livery too 
Marnack says:With aging, some colors get lighter, other darker 
Marnack says:The aged livery in is the png with the main livery 
21:29
me says:Hmm 
21:30
Marnack
Marnack says:The image is simply rotated by 180 degrrees 
21:30
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:lol that's also one way to do it 
21:30
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:Can the `[multiply` texture multiplier be used to make an image semi-transparent? That could make such overlaying slightly simpler 
21:31
Blockhead
Blockhead says:I think you use other functions to apply alphatransparency 
21:31
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:[Multiply only takes a color(I think), it can’t multiply with textures. 
doxygen-spammer says:The best you can do is darkening by alpha-blending with black. 
doxygen-spammer says:Lightening is only with alpha-blending white, which desaturates everything. 
21:32
me says:As i said, units should be standardised 
me says:*configurable 
21:32
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:[Multiply_texture and [Screen_texture would be nice modifiers, even without performance impact. 
21:33
me says:1/metre, 1/time, 1/speed 
21:33
W3RQ01 - dario23
W3RQ01 - dario23 says:1mt block = 1 metre 
21:33
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:I thought about exp(k*distance) 
21:33
Marnack
Marnack says:advtrains just needs to provide a method to be overriden by the mod for the wagon to age itself. 
21:34
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:So it comes down to have methods in the advtrains wagon definition that do “Hey, give me a livery texture for the current wagon” and “Hey, takes this livery texture and make at dirty”, yeah? 
21:34
Marnack
Marnack says:I think we need some written proposals for auto aging.  There are several options we could consider. 
21:38
me says:brb gonna make some tea 
21:38
Marnack
Marnack says:I somehow missed the posting of the proposals before today... 
21:40
me says:I'm autistic so it's very hard to build habits. I'll obsess over the wiki for some days, and then move onto something else. 
21:41
Marnack
Marnack says:I try to check the wiki at least once per week. 😃 
21:41
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:😃 
21:42
me says:Sometimes once every waking hour, sometimes once every month 
21:42
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:Graffitis in germany have bad reputation. There are nice ones, but “tags” are too present. 
21:42
me says:Intresting 
me says:I would love that 
21:43
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:dario23: how about introducing social crediting to MT to avoid that? 😛 
21:43
me says:Special train cleaning places for vandalism 
21:43
Marnack
Marnack says:Interestingly, dlx trains had a grafitti overlay system ready for the first release but I didn't release it.  I might release it later. 
21:43
Blockhead
Blockhead says:LIke Minecraft: China Edition... 
21:43
me says:Interesante 
me says:Honestly, vandalism would be cool to add to the server lore of mine. The people from the people mod are angry that i build a line through their village so they vandalize, using ghost train queues as oppertunities 
21:45
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:ghost trains aren't supposed to be used for anything 
21:45
Blockhead
Blockhead says:M I N E T E S T  L O R E 
21:45
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:they indicate a poor trackwork setup 
21:45
me says:As i said, server lore. I have already built a system of catacombs and said the stars are other servers 
me says:Don't worry, ghost trains are slowly resolving across my server 
me says:Too much track griefing on anarchy 
me says:People grief it for the sake of griefing 
me says:Combine vandalism and ageing in the same layers? 
me says:Seems like a way to reduce work 
21:48
Marnack
Marnack says:fyi, dlx has another layer for effects such as lights and spinning fans which need to be topmost. 
21:49
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:? 
doxygen-spammer says:Listening 
21:51
me says:I think we need tracks without ballast, with dirt, and other things. But britisignals may implement them in the future 
21:52
Blockhead
Blockhead says:more track and ballast mods are welcome 
21:52
me says:I will try 
21:52
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:tracks without ballast are default, we just need more ballast types than default:gravel 
21:52
me says:But it's hard with the hobby cycle 
me says:I've been struggling steering it back to programming. 
me says:
http://56i.duckdns.org/blog/#The%20Hobby%20Cycle
 
21:53
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:“I've been struggling steering it back to programming. ” Understand and feel. 
21:53
me says:You neurodivergent? 
me says:i kind of let it do what it does, it's healthier that way 
21:54
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:Heard it the first time. Here it is mostly depression what rules what I am capable of doing. 
21:55
Marnack
Marnack says:I'm waiting for gabriel on that 
21:55
me says:I am also working on an Intercity, the 70s one XD 
me says:The BR one 
21:55
Marnack
Marnack says:A problem with working displays in the texture is that the scale needed for the display would overwhelm the rest of the texture file. 
21:57
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:“scale ... texture” That is why I have a second texture slot for displays. Then I can rescale the texture freely, depending on the text size. 
21:57
me says:mmmh, hot tea 
21:57
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:Blender and the b3d exporter is tough matter. 
doxygen-spammer says:When I make a new Konstal model, I plan to record some working steps to write a guide in the wiki. 
21:59
me says:I've always used .obj. Should i use .b3d? 
me says:Why? 
me says:ah,that's fine 
me says:We need to move the flightgear community into advtrains so we can get all sorts of train models ; - ) 
me says:Also: I feel that station tracks should use a rolling stop and not a brakeing stop 
me says:Same for PSR and signal signs 
22:02
Marnack
Marnack says:error 
22:02
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:rolling stop: that's kind of controlled by LZB 
22:02
me says:I've always seen a train be put into braking mode 
22:03
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:Im not taking notes. 
22:03
me says:!! 
22:03
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:otherwise you could put atc tracks ahead of the station approach 
22:03
me says:I have recorded this into OBS...? 
me says:Can someone take the chat as i am not giving out the video, only the sound 
22:04
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:56i: don't give out any 
22:04
me says:The video has tabs on which are kinda private 
22:04
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:most chat items have been brought up by voice anyway i think 
22:05
me says:I'll post a link to the sound 
me says:Once it's on my webserver 
22:05
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:56i: don't 
22:05
me says:Ok 
me says:Unlisted video? 
22:05
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:no 
22:05
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:no 
22:05
Blockhead
Blockhead says:best not to publish - privacy 
22:05
me says:Where do i put the audio? 
me says:Email? 
22:05
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:Don't put the audio at all 
22:05
Blockhead
Blockhead says:just transcribe some key things and post as text 
22:06
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:if i wanted my voice spread across the internet I'd start a youtube channel 
22:06
me says:What if i use AI transcription? 
22:06
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:We should have talked about it at the beginning. BigBlueButon can record, and shows that to everyone. 
22:06
me says:we have two.6 hours of meeting and i honestly don't want to put myself through the effort 
22:06
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:I think you should only copy the chat, and send it to anyone *of us*, and ask them to look what is missing in the public notes. 
22:07
me says:Should i add more train diversity? 
me says:Like add my own trains? 
me says:Or is my time better spent elsewheere? 
22:08
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:Feel free to create new mods for that 
22:08
me says:Thanks 
22:08
Blockhead
Blockhead says:choose what you want and find easy out of signals, wagons etc. 
22:08
me says:Thanks 
22:08
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:There may be further conferences on other topics though, but ultimately it comes down to your own interests (more or less) 
22:08
me says:What i like is server administration. Maybe Gabriel should hand over the passwords? /j 
22:08
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:That is not related to development itself 
22:10
me says:I would try my hand in signals if it wasn't for the API being distant from my reach and the reach of distant signals. 
me says:I might make automatic interlocking 
22:10
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:what? 
doxygen-spammer says:meta poll? 
22:12
me says:xD 
22:13
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:which platform for what? 
doxygen-spammer says:My attention span is over. 
22:13
me says:I chose gitlab and gabriel 
me says:Fine 
me says:Good 
me says:I subscribed to all three 
me says:I use proton, which should have been made obvious 
22:15
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:My mods are pretty insulated. The two methods in the advtrains wagon definition, and done. Easy to test with busted. 
22:17
me says:Hmm 
22:17
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:That could not be applied to advtrains. It interfaces the runtime too much. 
22:18
me says:(British i don't understand but cool idea response) 
22:18
Blockhead
Blockhead says:pin your dependencies! 
22:19
me says:fine 
22:21
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:"relevant to liveries" business 
22:21
me says:In flightgear, you can change livery fromwithin the plane. Maybe in the drivers cabin, in the onboard computer, you can change livery using Blockhead's formspec 
me says:A tool and a button 
22:22
Maverick2797
Maverick2797 says:how often do train drivers need to change their loco's paint? 
22:23
me says:When they go on strike 
me says:Black out the company name 
22:23
Y. Wang
Y. Wang says:Just send in the tanks 😃 
22:23
me says:Let's get super duck in and give them the livery code so they can change livery fromwithin the hidroplane 
me says:Yep, 22:24 
me says:23:24 CEST 
me says:3 hours now 
me says:Goodnight 
22:27
Marnack
Marnack says:thanks all!  bye 
22:27
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:Bye o/ 
22:27
me says:We should make a time-machine traversing timezone 
22:27
doxygen-spammer
doxygen-spammer says:I will get home now. 
22:27
me says:Wait wrong way 
22:27